Posted by Radovan on November 30, 19100 at 11:03:27:
In Reply to: Re: 18th century wreck posted by Mike Spears on November 27, 19100 at 22:05:59:
: : Isabelle,
: : I am quite familiar with the French vessel you cite. The early French records on Lake Superior are quite clear about the existence of this vessel which was built for the French mineral explorer LaRonde. It appears that she passed into the hands of the British and was probably lost in 1763, as the loss of a French vessel is noted on the lake in that year. Unfortunately, her name was not recorded, or at least has not yet been unearthed by historians. I consider it an outside possibility that she could have been the British vessels De Peyster or Mackinac which were on Lake Superior in the mid 1770s and met an unknown fate.
: : I am very confident that LaRonde's schooners' remains have not been found. The earliest wreck yet located on Superior is the John Jacob Astor (1844) at Copper Harbor. People have searched for the Invincible lost at Whitefish Point (1816), but no searches have been conducted for the earlier British or French vessels because there is no way to even guess at the area of loss. Most of the early British fleet were either run down the St. Mary's Rapids or were wrecked in doing so. Others were destroyed during the War of 1812.
: : My best guess is that the very early vessels such as LaRonde's schooner (1734) and Alexander Henry's legendary keel boat and barge (1772), were lost by going aground, as were most early Lake Superior wrecks. Even vessels that went aground in the mid 1800s have been reduced to splinters today. I consider it highly unlikely that these very early vessel have any extant remains, and if they did, finding them would be much harder than the proverbial needle in a haystack. Thanks for this most interesting question. I hope it sparks further discussion.
: : The following table shows all the pre-American vessels on Superior and is taken from one of my upcoming books:
: : Decked Vessels on Lake Superior in the Pre-American Era
: : Name Size On Lake Lost
: : (LaRonde’s Brk.) 25 gt. c. 1735 1763 - Unknown
: : (Henry’s Sloop & Barge) 40 gt. 1771 Unknown
: : Sch. DePeyster c. 40 gt. 1778 Unknown
: : Sch. Mackinac c. 40 gt. 1778 Unknown
: : Sch. Beaver** c. 40 gt. c. 1785 c. 1792- to lower lakes
: : Sch. Athabasca 40 gt. 1786 c. 1793 - to lower lakes
: : Sch. Speedwell c. 40 gt. 1789 c. 1799 - to lower lakes
: : Sch. Otter 75 gt. 1793 c. 1812 - Wrecked, St. Mary’s Rapids
: : Sch. Invincible c. 50 gt. 1802 1816 - Wrecked, Whitefish Pt.
: : Sch. Recovery (I) 90 gt. 1809 1825 - Scrapped, Ft. William
: : Sch. Perseverance 80 gt. c. 1812 1814 - Wrecked, St. Mary’s Rapids
: : Sch. Mink 50 gt. c. 1812 1814 - To lwr. Lakes, wrecked Detroit
: : Sch. Discovery 20-100 gt. c. 1812 c. 1812 - Wrecked, St. Mary’s Rapids
: : Sch. Fur Trader 40 gt. 1812 1812 - Wrecked, St. Mary’s Rapids
: : Sch. Axmouth* 30 gt. 1817 Before 1829 - unknown
: : Sch. Recovery (II) 133 gt. 1823 1828 - To lwr. lakes, wrecked Buffalo
: : * Vessel portaged overland into Lake Superior
: : **There is some debate as to whether the Beaver actually made it to the Lake. One account relates an aborted attempt
: : to pull her up through the St. Mary’s Rapids.
: :
: : : I am wondering if any of you divers have come across the wreck of a wooden sailing ship which was built on Lake Superior in 1734. It was built during the French Regime to serve the fur trading post La Pionte, at Madeleine Island. No one knows what became of this ship and it may have been one of the earliest sailing ships to ply the great lakes.
: *
: *
: I am extremely interested in this topic. I have a primary source documenting the building of LaRonde's vessel -- which I can't immediately dig out of my files, but I will share it in short order. I have no record of the final fate of this vessel. Does anyone have any actual primary sources to support her being taken over by the British, or being lost in 1763?
: In his book, "Travels and Adventures in Canada and the Indian Territories," Alexander Henry makes reference to the launching of a sloop in 1772 (I believe) and to the end of his mining business and the sale of the sloop in 1774. There is no reference as to who it was sold to, however.
: This very closely ties in to the time when John Askin was at Mackinac -- and he could very well have been the buyer, but I have no evidence to support this supposition. John Askin's records (John Askin Papers) makes reference to the existence of his vessels, but no references to their origin.
: I would be extremely interested in knowing if anyone has any primary sources which would help clarify the records of these very early vessels.
: Brendan - Do you have any specific primary sources for the vessels listed in your "Decked Vessels on Lake Superior in the Pre-American Era?"
: I will gladly help follow-up on any leads that anyone may have regarding clarifying and specifically documenting the history of any of these very early vessels on Lake Superior, and will gladly share any information I should find.
: That the bark was built there are primary sources for, in the French ministers letters. De La Ronde was given permission to build two vessels, one of 25 tons and one of 50 tons, thesmaller one to be on Lake Superior and the larger one on the lower lakes to transport the copper east. Because of economic conditions he only built the one on Lake Superior & the size appears to have increased to 40 tons.He was granted permission in 1731 and built the vessel in 1733 near the Soo.
After that it becomes trickier to get 1st person accounts of its movements and eventual demise. The Canadian records say Larondes bark was wrecked in 1763 and this could be the case,however there are other reports of the vessel being scuttled at the close of the French and Indian war to keep it from falling into British hands. So far if this is true, I have found no British accounts of raising the vessel and putting it back into service. I would lean more on it remaining lost as the British kept pretty good acounts of vessel movement on the lakes.
In any account, I reserve the right to change my mind on a moments notice if any more information becomes available.